cycling4freaks.com

Final PDF
June 2023

Races to be designed:
All done

Races to be checked:
All done

Some comments for June:

Design: May was nice. Some help from Roby, Tukh, Alk, Poke, etc... but still >50% designed by the calendar manager (me) so would be great if I could get similar help or even more

Dauphine/TdS: Same one day overlap as usual. So unless majority for some strange delay despite that being an affront to purists, we have the overlap. TdS stage 1 with 12km ITT would allow having that as a half stage one day later, but purist in me still doesn't like it. But overlap makes editions difficult...

Last year 2 editions each, at the low of participants with average 7 teams per edition. This year e.g. PN/TA with 2 editions each but average 11.75 teams per edition. More comebackers and new teams since then, so enough to have 3+3 editions now? One day overlap is also not the same as a complete overlap because you can potentially have more teams interested (those who have time only in one of the two weeks can still ride). So 3+3 my suggestion here but 2+2 is fine, too, or we go 2+3 as a compromise but hard to say then whether Dauphiné or TdS deserves the 3 editions.

In terms of times, last year 9-18 for Dauphine and 15-21 for TdS. So now mixing times, would give me e.g. 14-22 Dauphine and 10-19 TdS. To have 3 each, I added 17 and 20. Especially 20 is very popular and only gets few stage races. So that would be 14-19-22 Dauphine and 10-17-20 TdS. My logic might be completely wrong of course,... Maybe morning prefers 9 again? Maybe afternoon is crazy for TdS and demands an edition? Maybe some others want to show their preferences for Dauphine or TdS? Let me know !

NCs: Currently planned for 22 June. Weekday because more likely to have Alkworld there for bug solving. But if there's a good reason, it can be another weekday.

I should be able to design a bit again. Probably no problem to do the Granfondos and at least one of the tours. Probably going to do Suisse during this week

Most likely won't ride any of the tours myself, but I think it would be better to have a total of 5 editions for Suisse and Dauphine. Difficult to decide which one gets the 3 though. Maybe also wait a little to see how participation looks this month with Dunkerque and Norway

tour de Suisse at 09 would be nice

Since from what I see the fantasy races in May aren't actually really generally on the times announced in the May PDF, maybe no need to put the times for fantasy races anymore. Or not even for cat 2-3 IMO. What's the point if then it's on different times? And it's probably easier to see when it's good or not good when putting it online than when making a PDF.

Early evening, 17-19 who is getting a very rough deal (according to the PDF) in May (look parallel to Norway, neither Norway and on 3 parallel day to the Giro only 1 race offered, at 17h) is getting a hard time again a bit. Especially stuff like this isn't fully convincing:

Thu 15-Jun-23 9-15-20-23 Fantasy One Day Race 1 10-17-20 Tour de Suisse

No fantasy race, 17h TdS (which is historically the weakest early evening time) 20 on the other hand gets BOTH the TdS and the 1 day race. Something doesn't smell right.


Not fully convinced by 3-3 either.

Robyklebt wrote: ↑

Tue May 16, 2023 4:39 pm

Since from what I see the fantasy races in May aren't actually really generally on the times announced in the May PDF, maybe no need to put the times for fantasy races anymore. Or not even for cat 2-3 IMO. What's the point if then it's on different times? And it's probably easier to see when it's good or not good when putting it online than when making a PDF.

Yeah I would also vote for not showing times for the fantasy races, or as it is now, I just ignore them most of the time. Sometimes they are usefull as inspiration. I think for all real races, as they are placed at the times announced, the times should stay. If you want me to put in the times in the pdf, I can do that as well. Easier job then, less thinking but I think in order to be more flexible to react on situation I would just keep on chosing times (usually I make a week of races at once).

If I wouldn't be on holiday at that time, I would demand an afternoon edition of TdS, and alternatively a 10h edition because its my more logical switching time (not 9h). But as I am not here, I don't care and have to ride Dauphine instead

Donks had a strongish preference for 15h Dauphiné

strong preference for no overlap between dauphine and suisse.... would be nice to ride both

So far, expressed preferences regarding Dauphine/TdS

- Dauphine 15 instead of 14 (can be done)
- TdS 9 instead of 10 (can be done)
- max. 5 editions for both (can be done, most likely 3x Dauphine and 2x TdS with 17h TdS cut based on comments so far)
- no overlap (can be done but larger majority needed because standard remains real race on real date)

I like the idea for no overlap. But i am the one who is less interestet in real cycling.

But for sure, i have an argument: there are only 2 tours in the month, so the most of us like tours more then one day races.

would prefer TdS at 9

I'm as usual against changing the real calendar. One day races if there's 3 in reality, ok ok, (until we have the numbers to go 2+2+2), but stage races? No!

TdS+Dauphiné, 6/5/4 editions? I'm for 6 or 4, same importance (TdS had more prestige 20 or 30 years ago, Dauphiné used to be parallel to the Giro as well, but by now I guess the prestige is roughly the same (although as a swiss I have the idea that the TdS might still be more prestigious, but since that's probably bias, it's probably wrong). Why give one more edition to 2 tours of the same importance?

I probably would have proposed 4, rather have bigger groups. Both in the tours and the parallel one day races. But probably 6 works too? Although the numbers aren't THAT good either. The uncountable days of Dunkerque and Giro parallel, 22 teams there. One day races 20-23 during that time had 0 3 0 6 2 5. 23 with twice 0 and once 2 teams. So we had a maximum of 28 teams riding 20-23 in those days... IMO that's not enough to offer both in those times. Even if of course with only one day overlap it still might work... Instead of 15 at the stage race, we get 10+8 or something like that (if it's 20, earlier evening guys coming too) and 5/6 guys that ride neither and occasionally ride 1 day races, so we still could get decent 1 day race participation, except on that overlap Sunday. Problem with 6 though would be where to put the second extra edition... 22-20-18 seems rather clear, (if offering 20 for then IMO 18 is much better than 19 for the other tour) 14/15-9/10 too, the remaining one... the evening can't afford 21 or 23, not enough teams. 17/19 seems doubtful too, the morning and the afternoon don't really need dilution either... 12! I'd go with 4..

As for the NC, I propose:
1) Clean up the nationalities (finally) and take out those that somehow snuck (back) in during the react conversion. North Korea, Yugoslavia, Taiwan...
2) Only offer NC that have a minimum of 10 riders from at least 4 different teams with at least 1 race in the past month. (Only active ones the goal)
3) Start the day at 9am, not 10am

Clearly vote for 4 editions and of course for having real (and important) races on real dates. Strengthen the one day races in June as they had hard times during May!

Robyklebt wrote: ↑

Mon May 22, 2023 1:16 pm

Why give one more edition to 2 tours of the same importance?

Normally not my favorite solution, either, so most likely it will be 4 editions, but to explain why 5 editions was an idea in this particular case:

- if in doubt between 4 and 6, then 5 sounds like a compromise
- this year more interest in Dauphine than usual with afternoon teams announcing their interest in it while they are traditionally more interested in TdS
- 5 editions is nice because you can do morning-afternoon-early evening-evening-late evening

So if 5 editions, would suggest Dauphine 15-18-22 and TdS 9-20. But more likely 4 editions now, so Dauphine 15-22 and TdS 9-19.

Until now, i didnt see someone. I would try to design Tour de Suisse the next few days, but somebody have to check this. Will be my first real race.

Participation for one day races should not be a problem during the Dauphiné / TdS time, as they only have one stage overlapping. Hence I would rather go for 3 editions each than only 2. Participation for these stage races should be okay too as f.e. morning and afternoon people will only have one possibility anyway. But 2 edition might work better for participation, I don't know. More is more .

if we go for 3+3 editions i absolutely would love a 20h edition one

but i dont know where we should set a 6th time.

schappy wrote: ↑

Tue May 23, 2023 11:07 am

Until now, i didnt see someone. I would try to design Tour de Suisse the next few days, but somebody have to check this. Will be my first real race.

I already started with designing Suisse, but haven't done too much work on it so far

Tukhtahuaev wrote: ↑

Tue May 23, 2023 1:25 pm

schappy wrote: ↑

Tue May 23, 2023 11:07 am

Until now, i didnt see someone. I would try to design Tour de Suisse the next few days, but somebody have to check this. Will be my first real race.

I already started with designing Suisse, but haven't done too much work on it so far

No Problem, i can do Dauphine.

or somebody starts this?

Gipfelstuermer wrote: ↑

Tue May 23, 2023 10:30 am

- this year more interest in Dauphine than usual with afternoon teams announcing their interest in it while they are traditionally more interested in TdS

Well, there's been 2 guys showing "interest" in Dauphiné. AAD because he's not here during the TdS and me, but that's because I fully support the switching of what a time can ride, in the end don't actually care much which one of the 2 I ride, as long as one is offered When both are offered I usually chose the TdS because a) there's a longer break after the Giro b) I'm swiss c) Dauphiné as mini TdF for a while had lots of TT and sometimes the same stage or part of stages as the TdF. No idea how it is that year, it's mostly the time switch that I support, not either or.

+1 for a no overlap and changing the dates to give possibility to ride both tours.

3+3 or 2+2, no idea, 2+2 seems fine, if the tours stay on original date.

Would rather prefer to have a TdS afternoon edition instead of Dauphine.

Final PDF online with Dauphine 15-22 and TdS 9-19 based on majority of comments.

20/21 missing out despite good evening participation not ideal but Hansa the only one commenting on that. Lots of afternoon commentators, unfortunately less from morning and evening in general. Maybe they are less concerned because 20/21 people have no problem moving to 19 or 22, but even if that's the case, would be good knowing...

Anyway, good luck and have fun designing I am thinking of design statistics / rewards but not yet sure what to do because designers are just one group of volunteers in this game. Maybe improving the editor is the best reward... little time recently and as always me mocking around with half finished alk work not super easy... but will find some solutions, usually me trying to perfection alks work in the end leads to something good.

Gipfelstuermer wrote: ↑

Thu May 25, 2023 4:17 pm

Final PDF online with Dauphine 15-22 and TdS 9-19 based on majority of comments.

20/21 missing out despite good evening participation not ideal but Hansa the only one commenting on that. Lots of afternoon commentators, unfortunately less from morning and evening in general. Maybe they are less concerned because 20/21 people have no problem moving to 19 or 22, but even if that's the case, would be good knowing...

Anyway, good luck and have fun designing I am thinking of design statistics / rewards but not yet sure what to do because designers are just one group of volunteers in this game. Maybe improving the editor is the best reward... little time recently and as always me mocking around with half finished alk work not super easy... but will find some solutions, usually me trying to perfection alks work in the end leads to something good.

for me its a problem moving to 19 or 22h but 19h works ok for me.
i would like to get 20h back if we get more than 4 parallel editions in the future but i think with more than 4 times it should be possible to bring 20h back. for 4 edition i guess these times are fine

Dauphine done, but for sure you have to check and if something really bad, please Feedback.

Stage 1



Stage 2



Stage 3



Stage 4



Stage 5



Stage 6



Stage 7



Stage 8

schappy wrote: ↑

Sat May 27, 2023 7:48 am

Dauphine done, but for sure you have to check and if something really bad, please Feedback.

Nice, thanks, schappy.

Just noticed stage 3 is hilly and stage 6 is mountain on the official website.