June 2023

[bergwerk cycling]

for idea: you could put in both tours in the end of Juni parallal again

call them Dauphine/TdS Second Edition or Fantasy Edition and give them Cat 2 not 4

[Robyklebt]

And I want to ride a classic that used to be one of the most important classics of them all. Paris-Bruxelles, in the old times before the Big Donkey followed cycling was easily one of the 8 most important classics (the 5 monuments plus Paris-Tours, Flèche Wallonne (that used to be more important than LBL, ancient history again) and PB. Now Brussels Cycling classic, obviously not one of the 20 most important 1 day races anymore, but the Donkey still likes it. To make sure I can ride and win it could we maybe ride it daily parallel to the TdS AND of course after the TdS too.
All the old parcours, and of course since it's the old races as category 5. High category races attract managers!

Furthermore I really like the Giro dell Emilia, but since I'm not sure I'll have a good climber in October, maybe we could ride in in June after the Dauphiné too? Cat 3 is ok there for me. Then all the old Italian classics that disappeared, Coppa Placci, Giro di Romagna, Giro del Lazio, somehow I think forgetting one. All those at cat 4 in June (really all in autumn, but we don't care anymore) too, lots of new managers joining!

[bergwerk cycling]

In my eyes we could ride your ideas too. Btw i am fan from real termins. But it gives manager with other meanings ...

It was only a compromiss idea to ride one tour more this month.


And noone!!! cant ride alone here ...

[Robyklebt]

Ok, then this:

Second part of June, second part of September are 2 "tourless" empty spots in the UCI calendar. National Championships and World Championships (although I think this year the WC is earlier, in August. So the September hole might not be there this time, maybe we get an August hole?). Everybody that follows cycling OR just pays attention at c4f knows that. What to do? Can be discussed. But ideally not in early June for June and in early September for September. If some day we come to the conclusion that yes, we want some tours there, then I would prefer some in season fantasy tours to weird real tours moved from other places. But like now doesn't bother me all that much either. So I have to spend 2 weeks without any tours twice a year? The horror. I get to ride 1 day races with better participation? The horror!!!!

Some of the stuff that you can read in the chat is simply ridiculous. From things everybody that has ever had anything to do with the calendar, yes, tours or even just more races gives you more active managers, but more races (incl. more tours) give you less interesting races, smaller groups. The difficult thing is to find the balance. We know that, it's funny to see somebody like Claw how seems to have trouble with very simply concepts, loudly trying to teach anybody ever involved with the calendar his amazing discovery. Dude, get a clue, I knew that when I was calendar assistant (That calendar planner thing I get in my profile (think got it AFTER I stopped...) should be taken off... still there just checked...), I'm pretty sure Gipfel knows that too. Or Unterhund who shows up saying that he put his form on one Tour without checking, now that tour isn't offered at the time he wanted, so somehow it's the calendars fault? As I said, the chat is ridiculous.

PLUS there's time to discuss the specifics of a certain month after Gipfel posts the first preview. Seems to be like it was before, on the 15th. (he can change that if he wants of course). Then he seems to try to post the final PDF on the 25th, as before, he's more punctual than Donks/Luques were most of the time so far. Interestingly enough then often it's AFTER the 25th that people want to discuss the calendar of the following month. (that didn't change) People. try using common sense, if there is a 10 day window, where you are actually actively being encouraged to say your opinion, don't show up after that window is closed. (The new guy got it, Bright, he showed up early, it's the oldies that feel entitled that show up late)

Here in this case Gipfel proposed 3+3 for TdS/Dauphiné at first, maybe 5 editions together? Others (incl. me) then said they thought probably 4 was best, in the end he went with 4. Those that don't like it and show up after the 25th really have only themselves to blame. Not only it has to be exactly the way you want, otherwise c4f isn't "evolving", but also it has to be like that without you saying it. Amazing expectations. You think the milk in your fridge appears there automatically too right (it does in my case, if I wait long enough with doing things at some point some parts of the apartment seem to heal themselves, but at least I understand c4f isn't working like that)

So the whole "discussion" now really is completely pointless and a huge waste of time. Good for you I like wasting my time, especially if there's the possibility of a nice fight!

If you want to change the real date thing (which is not that strict for 1 day races, when there's 3 in one day, often one is being moved) then ideally you open a thread in the "calendar, general discussion" part. It is a general discussion after all, then it can be discussed without tight time constraints, with arguments and all that uncool stuff.

If you want to get some stage races into those holes mentioned above, fantasy or real ones that otherwise wouldn't be ridden, ZLM, Belgium, Slowenia, Occitanie for example this month, again, this is first of all a policy discussion, open a thread in the general discussion part again. And not short notice, as a general topic. Think ahead. Identify the problem (there's 2 periods a year when there's no stage race offered), spend 30 minutes looking at when it is, spend some time THINKING about it, spend some time looking for a solution, post a proposal. But keep in mind that somebody has to design those races too, they don't appear by miracle. And keep in mind that others might disagree with you (and in my specific case understand the whole topic arond 50 times better than you do too)

Plus, welcome to the afternoon. Even when the numbers were still ok, when Leso still made the calendar, in March for PN/TA and June for Dauphiné/TdS, it was regularly in the afternoon that managers didn't get to choose which race they wanted to ride, just one offered. See June 16, but was similar earlier, just not in the calendar anymore. 2015, 14... 2016: Dauphiné 9-14-19-21, TdS 10-17-20-23. (but Lux parallel to Dauphiné offered in the afternoon...) Stuff like that wasn't the exception, it was standard, despite having similar or even stronger numbers than the morning, it was always the afternoon that got cut. By now fortunately we've managed to cut stuff more evenly, very unfortunately forced by decreasing number of users (the more cuts, cut , cut cut, nonstop cutting came AFTER the numbers went down, just for Claw in case he wasn't sure (I'm sure he wasn't)). So now with still low, even if slowly recovering numbers right now we still can't offer all tours at 5 times like it was in the golden years. Not even 4 each makes sense if it's parallel. 3? Maybe, probably not... So we are at 2 each now for June, and well, now everybody feels the pain. With justified cuts. Not just one time, with unjustified ones. Deal with it. Seems some don't deal with it too well

[flockmastoR]

the unattractive one-day races are thus offered employee-friendly four sessions.
and the attractive tours, on the other hand, only have been given two sessions. so that many cannot ride them at all

was it intended to devalue the tours in this way?

1) The tours overlap, so in any case you cannot race both of them (if you want to shift real stage races, follow the instructions of RKL and open a thread in "calendar, general discussion")

2) Given that the tours overlap, you can pick your prefered time and ride the race that is offered there. It's nothing out of the blue as it was exactly the same last year (but with switching times, last year Dauphine 9-18, Tour de Suisse 15-21). Check the final pdf for that. There is no excuse that you just assume your time would be offered. If you set form for Dauphine you at least know when it takes place. What is "employee-friendly" I think everybody has a different opinion on that. 22h is not fine for you, don't generalize that, be on time to complain/make a proposal for 21h IN TIME next time.

3) It's all about balance. There are probably about 3 types of managers. The ones who ride a stage race whenever it is possible, the ones who favor stage races but also tend to skip some of them for important one day races or for time reasons and the ones who favor one day races and sometimes or never ride a stage race. Think that every group needs to be considered. If the one-day races are that unattractive (what you mean by that?) probably we should try to make them more attractive again (how to do it, IMO putting in much more stage races with 5 participants won't increase their numbers)

[Quick]

I'm here because I read the drama in the chat.

First: I can't tell you how much I appreciate everyone who does any calender work. May it be flocke, Gip or any of the designers.

Second: I'm super active. Even in the forum I try to read everything. But I'll be honest, I skip the calender stuff mostly. I trust you guys 100% here and I usually can find a time to ride anyway, so I have simply nothing to contribute

Maybe make an in game poll next time? Or a short message that there is a poll. Only "rewarding" the guys who read here is kinda unfair when you make such an important decision. I guess we never moved tours, so that's a pretty big change as opposed to the usual start-time discussions.

Third: in case I miss the next poll, please count me in the NO overlap camp

[Alkworld]

Hi all,
I created a new generator for the national championships. They all look now a little different (history to be added later), but the big plus is that they are still available in the Race Editor. So if any of you want to include some original NCs, you can now design them in the race editor and link them to the generated race. Once done, AAD or Gipfel can publish the races to the real calendar.
Have fun!

[Gipfelstuermer]

Hi all,
I created a new generator for the national championships. They all look now a little different (history to be added later), but the big plus is that they are still available in the Race Editor. So if any of you want to include some original NCs, you can now design them in the race editor and link them to the generated race. Once done, AAD or Gipfel can publish the races to the real calendar.
Have fun!

Deadline for creating the original NCs would be Fr, 16 June. Just to make sure we publish them in time. Would be nice to have some real NCs for countries like Germany or France, but if we ride all fantasy, it's also OK.

[flockmastoR]

Hi all,
I created a new generator for the national championships. They all look now a little different (history to be added later), but the big plus is that they are still available in the Race Editor. So if any of you want to include some original NCs, you can now design them in the race editor and link them to the generated race. Once done, AAD or Gipfel can publish the races to the real calendar.
Have fun!

Deadline for creating the original NCs would be Fr, 16 June. Just to make sure we publish them in time. Would be nice to have some real NCs for countries like Germany or France, but if we ride all fantasy, it's also OK.

I create the Austrian Championship, already found some information about the route

PS: is there any convention of how to name it, tag it to the history, insert one IS (do we get money for that)? Any other stuff?

[flockmastoR]

NC Austria



I just edited the linked profile in the planned race. Think should work!

[Hansa]

Hi all,
I created a new generator for the national championships. They all look now a little different (history to be added later), but the big plus is that they are still available in the Race Editor. So if any of you want to include some original NCs, you can now design them in the race editor and link them to the generated race. Once done, AAD or Gipfel can publish the races to the real calendar.
Have fun!

IDK how to link my created NC profile to the already created NC Profile.

[Gipfelstuermer]

IDK how to link my created NC profile to the already created NC Profile.

No need to link it for you. Just post the profile here and we will link it. We = AAD or me.

[Hansa]

IDK how to link my created NC profile to the already created NC Profile.

No need to link it for you. Just post the profile here and we will link it. We = AAD or me.

profile code: smwetzikon_2023

[Gipfelstuermer]

Some more real NCs:







But I stop here. More important to design some July races.

For everyone else, if you want a real NC, you still have time until Friday to post it here.

[Robyklebt]

Criticism:

-5 races ok on weekdays, but not on weekends for the moment. 4 better there. Sat-Sun numbers are usually lower.
-18-20-22.... ok, 23 was bad during the Giro (?) but with nothing parallel, 23 would have made sense to try again. Advantage would have been that then 21 gets a race, instead of 18-20-22 as standard
-28th What happened to Circuit Franco Belge? If it's in the final PDF IMO It should be ridden

[Gipfelstuermer]

-28th What happened to Circuit Franco Belge? If it's in the final PDF IMO It should be ridden

https://circuitfrancobelge.com/index.ph ... e-edition/

[Robyklebt]

But it was in the final PDF, which used to be final and set in virtual stone. What's there, we ride at the times announced. Even if a race then got cancelled after the final PDF (or before and nobody realized it)

So that's not the case anymore?

[flockmastoR]

But it was in the final PDF, which used to be final and set in virtual stone. What's there, we ride at the times announced. Even if a race then got cancelled after the final PDF (or before and nobody realized it)

So that's not the case anymore?

So what did we ride in such a case? The last year's route?

[Robyklebt]

Yep.

Policy of course can change, but would be nice to know if it does.

[Gipfelstuermer]

We only ride races that are designed. If a race is cancelled AND not designed (because there is no route), it simply cannot be ridden. It's no policy change. It's logic. Was the same with Romandie some years ago for example. Probably not the only example. Last year's race is an option, but no policy.

[Robyklebt]

It was policy.

The final PDF was final and to be followed exactly, races, times, categories. (I'm sure mistakes happened that nobody caught) Luques once even changed the times of a race back to what it was in the PDF after the month change, after a complaint. Everything exactly as PDF was the policy.

Your Romandie-example is wrong, Romandie was kicked BEFORE the final PDF. It never appeared in the final PDF (assuming we still had one at the time, but pretty sure we did) Yorkshire came in, which then was cancelled too in reality, but was still ridden at c4f. Don't remember if with 2020 or 2019 route...

Last years race btw in such cases (cancellation or unavailability of route) used not to be an option, but policy. For 1 day races definitely.

So the policy changed. Don't see the sense in denying a policy change... The important thing is that we, the users know, what to expect. The policy now is "logic"? Now the final PDF is not fully trustworthy anymore, because we now have logic ruling it seems. Okay, we maybe had illogical policies before, but now with logic form setting becomes more of a lottery.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Your Romandie-example is wrong, Romandie was kicked BEFORE the final PDF. It never appeared in the final PDF (assuming we still had one at the time, but pretty sure we did) Yorkshire came in, which then was cancelled too in reality, but was still ridden at c4f. Don't remember if with 2020 or 2019 route...

May 2020 PDF still shows Romandie. 3 years later. Clearly it was NOT kicked and replaced in the PDF. Just one example. Would I say therefore I don't trust the calendar planner policy anymore? Weird thought. For me the opposite is true. For sure it made sense back then. No race, no route, no design. Smart decision to ride something else. Calendar Planner reacted to the cancellation and non-availability of profiles instead of doing nothing. Even if it was against whatever 'policy' it was the right thing to be done.

Anyway, where did the calendar planner even publish the 'policy' ? Don't think that exists so far? Maybe I am just not aware but don't think it's necessary either. The principle is written down on the start page already. Day after day the real cycling calendar. Small errors, minor changes, may happen. It's a calendar made by volunteers. Everyone knows that. Cancellations are one of the reasons. But the principle is clear. Users trust that.

[Robyklebt]

May shows Yorkshire...

You meant April, where it shows Yorkshire for April. And then in a miss (no copy down) shows this:

giovedì 30.04.20 10-14-19-23 Tour de Yorkshire 4 9
10-14-19-23 Tour de Romandie 4 9 Frankfurt 4 9
10-14-19-23 Tour de Romandie 4 9
10-14-19-23 Tour de Romandie 4 9

But trust me (or reread the whole thread if you want to, I have no intention of wasting my time with that) Romandie was kicked before the final PDF was published. As it says in the PDF too, just not that clearly due to a copy mistake.

Just one example? No, it isn't. And the others aren't there either. You can waste your time and try to find them (I don't recommend it, you have better things to do). There's always mistakes to be found (like putting a too short Tour of Austria online... sniff, embarrassing) but the policy was: PDF is final, so you won't find all those examples you imply. But don't waste your time, just agree with me, I simply know better than you in this case.

What happens BEFORE the last PDF is different then what happens after it. Romandie is an example of changes between the first PDF and the last one.

Where is the policy written down? There are no policies written down in one specific place. If you want you can start that of course. But the time Luques did change something after the month change (after a complaint by FL) it was in January of no idea what year, it should be clear that that's what the policy is. PDF is final.

And I'm sure something along those lines was written in the instruction PM by Luques sent me when I became calendar assistant. The one I forwarded to you. Plus faithful readers of this forum sections should at some point become aware of what policies are there.

Now, you do have the right to change policies, IMO you're not calendar assistant (in which case changes are always more doubtful) but boss, so do what you want, (and with the sentence that you regularly write in the first post you sort of not very clearly already hint at changes, things that aren't designed (without mention of availability) might be kicked) It's not overly clear, but it's an indication that the policy might have changed on that) But why insist on that there was no policy when somebody that clearly knows better (me) and has a better memory (me) tells you there was? That is weird.

Anyway, I just asked where that race was, then observed that we had a policy change. That's all. Policy was changed, for mysterious reasons you claim there was no policy, but it changed, that's all, got it.