May 21

[Robyklebt]

http://www.cycling4freaks.com/radsport/may2021.pdf

[Robyklebt]

And a short preview of the preview

Main race Giro, obviously,

Giro 08.-30.05. Proposed 4 editions (too many most likely but it's the Giro and don't feel like cutting) 9-15-18-21

Discuss times.... as usual they are not written in stone, not in our digital age.

Parallel races 2: Dunkerque, 04-09. and Dauphiné 30.05-06.06
3 editions, 13-19-22 for Dunkerque (13 maybe change to 14?) Since for small tours it's been the afternoon being cut mostly, not on this one I think.
Dauphiné, last year we postponed it one day, so that it wasn't parallel to the Giro. Which I personally don't like, but well... this year? No times planned, put a big "?" Morning, afternoon early evening all missed one cat 4 tour in between Cat-PV-Romandie, so again the afternoons turn? Or go for only 2 since it's parallel to the Giro? But then 3 for the TdS in June? No idea, discuss.

One day races bunched around the weekend 23-24, moved them a bit so now it's 21-26 real one day races, parallel races parallel to the Giro are even too much for my real calendar taste.

Anyway, for times for the Giro better start discussing soon. 21 or 22 for the evening the main question. (and ideally I'd like to have one for the Giro the other for the Tour, move it around, so not always the same guys have the perfect time, and the minority the a bit less perfect one...) but up to the vocal evening guys to say what's best, if it's twice the same as last year ok too in the end

[Gipfelstuermer]

Or go for only 2 since it's parallel to the Giro? But then 3 for the TdS in June?

That's a good idea in my point of view. Community is pretty much split into "Prefer stage races if there is a meaningful stage race" and "Prefer one day races". There are very few teams in the camp of "Prefer stage races but can only ride short stage races". Of course I don't have a crystal ball, but still I can predict participation for Giro will be O.K. with 4-times (some 8-12 teams each edition), but parallel races will be very empty. One-day races may be acceptable with 3-5 teams per race (I mean, not good, but acceptable). But then having another small stage race at all, can lead to ridiculous numbers of 1-2 teams per race.... for 3 weeks... so clearly 2 editions better than 3.

In fact, we have come so low with active teams, that I think about the following proposal for the Grand Tours (which Roby dislikes probably): Put the Grand Tours as Cat.5 as always.... and put as parallel programme only one day races being the stages of the Grand Tours ridden on that day as Cat. 2 and written in Palmares only as "Start City - Finish City". Why? As mentioned above, my impression is that most teams strictly prefer Grand Tours or strictly prefer One Day Races. And most that are missing the Grand Tours are missing it because they do not have time (not because they wouldn't like the Grand Tours per se). So for them (and by the way for Newbies (if we have any), too), it can be nice to ride the real stages as a one day race (and cat 2. better than cat. 1). Especially for the interesting stages we might even see some people join races because it's a nice race (like some rare players do for classic races). Even if there is anybody who strictly prefers short stage races, they still get a real race, better than cat. 1 and hopefully O.K. participation. Otherwise they will most likely get a short stage race with 1-2 teams... For me, personally, in case I miss a Grand Tours because I don't have time, would definitely like this option instead of some meaningless 1-2 teams races for 3 weeks in a row. It's just an idea. What do you think?

Anyway, for times for the Giro better start discussing soon. 21 or 22 for the evening the main question. (and ideally I'd like to have one for the Giro the other for the Tour, move it around, so not always the same guys have the perfect time, and the minority the a bit less perfect one...) but up to the vocal evening guys to say what's best, if it's twice the same as last year ok too in the end

Times, can make sense 18-21 for Giro, 19-22 for TDF, simply because of longer daylight and better weather in July, but also because Giro likes to have multiple >200km and because for May we have little hope for easing of lockdown in Europe. For July we can still have hope and as we have seen more lockdown means higher participation on earlier races, less lockdown means higher participation on later races. Just my impression.

[Pokemon Club]

Hum Giro 21h and TDF 22h at first view seems better this year due to quarantine stuff but don't know exactly the situation in Germany and Italy.
Other proposition : make it free for all, Giro and the side races. Or Luques wake up to give again free licenses. But currently seems the best thing to do to keep some managers motivated.

[el Galactico]

Hi,

I think Gip has a good point reasoning 21h for Giro and 22h for Tour. I could also imagine 21h for Tour de France as well but that can be discussed later on. No 22h campaign this year from me

Make participation for GT's free for all is probably a good idea considering the state of the game right now. At least easier to implement than waiting for Luques to finish the new version just in time for Giro 2024 with 2 participants at each time...

As for parallel races I would like to ride Dauphine as like last year so my vote goes to postpone it again for one day. I just dont mind one day if it means that I can ride a meaningful race instead of some cat.1 money race.

I have no opinion to the other Gip proposal to have certain Giro stages as one day races in parallel. Might be interesting for others.

[RS Coesitz]

As always, I prefer a late edition of the Giro. Argument: selfishness

[Bear]

I am ok with either 21 or 22h for Giro/Tour. I am not 100% in, but if I can, both of the times are ok for me. And I like the idea to have both times, one for Giro and the other one for TDF.

[L RSV]

I consider to ride GIRO at 21:00. I like the idea of having the giro stages parallel to the real giro, just to avoid too many small fields with not interesting races, but probably it wouldn't affect me, as I most likely do ride the GIRO.

As for parallel races I would like to ride Dauphine as like last year so my vote goes to postpone it again for one day. I just dont mind one day if it means that I can ride a meaningful race instead of some cat.1 money race.

--> yes. Personally I prefer stage races and would also be happy if we move Dauphine one day, so GIRO participants can join too. Otherwise we might end up with 5 teams Dauphine fields anyway. If we would have more active players...

[Rasmussen]

I prefer the Dauphin at the original date.

And I would prefer Dunkerque in the morning.

[Robyklebt]

Gipfel for once is right when he guesses what I'll think. Not a fan... but if you all want it. Don't really think it makes a difference with participation though, ok, I ride anything anyway, but it will still be 3 weeks with very small groups for the non-Giro teams.

But certainly not in place of the real races though... and cat 2? Really? Bah.

Dauphiné I'll let Luq count and decide. Ok, I'll report the opinions, hope we get more. Gipfel would be ok with parallel and 2 editions only, did I get that right? But no real preference?

Rasmussen, Dunkerque: Well....

REason is:

February: morning 4 afternoon 3 early evening 3 evening 4

One of the mornings had 1 team it seems. That didn't start the second stage.

March: cat 4 races not counted, I see them as in a different category a bit:

Sicilia: Morning 6, early evening 2, evening 10

April:
Alpes: morning, early evening, evening offered.

So IMO the afternoon gets this one normally. Got one less in February, nothing of the small ones in March-April (Sicily clearly a mistake there), so time to get those poor suckers something too.
Then it's between the morning and the early evening. With the morning getting more in February, generally similar participation, both one big failure, thought cut the morning.

BUT

Now we have 1 guy asking for the morning, so I assume you plan to ride it (and not the Giro) if you can get a few more (even one might be enough with our low numbers) no problem with offering it there, cut the early evening in that case. (If then they show up and ask for it with similar numbers it's the afternoon that gets cut.. .if they show up too, back to the morning....) Just ask around in the morning races and report back, no need for them to do the big hard effort of posting in the forum... (but would be nice if those guys were pretty sure that they will indeed ride Dunkerque in the morning, make them aware that it overlaps with the Giro)

[Gipfelstuermer]

Dauphiné I'll let Luq count and decide. Ok, I'll report the opinions, hope we get more. Gipfel would be ok with parallel and 2 editions only, did I get that right? But no real preference?

Jep, well, no real preference just because the main problem is low number of players. We can't change that. Participation will be low for the non-Giro races for sure. Well, Luques can change that, but not going to happen too soon, I fear.

So I am O.K. with

- Giro 4 editions || Dunkerque/Dauphine 2 editions || One-day races 3(?) editions
- Giro 4 editions || Dunkerque 2 editions || One-day races 3(?) editions (Dauphine moved by one day)
- Giro 4 editions || Giro stages as one day races 4 editions

Times for the parallel races... well, I think the "give afternoon something" should apply more to the large relevant races. For the small parallel races with few editions, do whatever works, so perhaps morning if Rasmussen wants a morning edition. Maybe afternoon gets TdS then and/or Dauphine if it gets moved by one day.

What I am not O.K. with
- Giro 4 editions || Dunkerque/Dauphine 3 editions || One-day races 4 editions

Waaay tooo much. You will need to cut the parallel races to make them ride-worthy at all. From the 60-70 active teams here, I guess min.40 will ride Giro! So do the math... there is not much of a parallel programm possible.

[Pokemon Club]

hum...my problem with Dauphine is that is in parallel of Giro AND Tour de Suisse, that mean no flexibility at all and all Giro team on Suisse too if we don't postponed it.
And I am against the Giro stage in parallel of Giro. There is some tours, would prefer to see other stages as one day race, but for Giro I don't like the idea

[Robyklebt]

Times for the parallel races... well, I think the "give afternoon something" should apply more to the large relevant races. For the small parallel races with few editions, do whatever works, so perhaps morning if Rasmussen wants a morning edition. Maybe afternoon gets TdS then and/or Dauphine if it gets moved by one day.

As I said, I count them separately, and PN-TA-Cat-PV-TdR-Dauphiné-TdS
PN/TA
Dauphiné/TdS
are parallel
That leaves Cat-PV-TdR. And on this one the morning-afternoon-early evening each missed one.

PN-TA everybody missed something, only 4 editions combined. So IMO we're fine on the important races part. Where the afternoon has been fucked a bit is the smaller tours. UAE (yeah yeah, WT, but who cares) Sicily, Alpes, all 3 cut in the afternoon.
Question now of course is Dauphiné-TdS, and that will stay parallel..... (unless Luques has lost his mind) Had forgotten 2-2 already, so probably after all 2-2 better there as well? Even if postponed? Or 2-2 if postponed, 2-3 if not (then more teams with TdS chances)

- Giro 4 editions || Dunkerque/Dauphine 2 editions || One-day races 3(?) editions

4 editions I say, 1 day races. It's 2 days Dunkerque and 1 day Dauphiné.

- Giro 4 editions || Dunkerque 2 editions || One-day races 3(?) editions (Dauphine moved by one day)

2 days! 4!

- Giro 4 editions || Giro stages as one day races 4 editions

Well, the other races too really. Or you actually propose to have ONLY Giro stages as one day races in parallel? Not the ral one day races?

Anyway, a good idea for Dunkerque IMO would be to ask around a bit in our races, hey dude! Are you planning to ride the Giro? Or Dunkerque? Or neither? I can ask in the afternoon a bit (but probably people don't even read what I write anymore since I write so much, so not sure to get answers), you too, Rasmussen in the morning, Bear in the evening etc. Then we can see how big the interest in Dunkerque is in general. Doesn't have to be a scientifically sound questionnaire, just feel the pulse of the people.. Then see if we want to give 2 or 3 editions.

[el Galactico]

If we decide not to postpone Dauphine for one day then it should be at least 3 times for TdS. Otherwise you risk that too much teams can't participate in either Dauphine or TdS even though they normally would do. I think the teams coming from Giro are mostly teams that would prefer riding a tour instead of one-day-races. Dauphine in that case probably will be have low participation anyway and 2 times should be more than enough.

I would still prefer to postpone Dauphine and then make it 2-2 would probably be the best idea.

[Robyklebt]

In case of Dauphiné one day later, then 2+2 Dauphiné Swi anybody an idea what where?

Last year TdS only 4 teams in the morning, so not popular, so Dauphiné?
2 years ago afternoon had TdS but not Dauphiné, so Dauphiné afternoon? Last year everybody had both 4+4.... so go 2 years back?

Edited: the overview showed only 1 participant in the morning....seemed strange, now clicked on it was 4 finally. So now tendency for afternoon-evening Dauphiné, morning early eveneing TdS.

[Robyklebt]

Sent the next proposal to Luques, he now can chose between the first one, described above, and the new one.

New one has Dauphiné one day late with 14-22
TdS then planned for 10-19 in June (or 9-18, forgot already, think it was 10-19)
Dunkerque down to 2 editions (something which probably should happen anyway) morning evening. Morning even though Rasmussen hasn't brought us new fans, I asked around a tiny little bit in the afternoon and was virtually assaulted, treated with contempt and ignored for asking if anybody had interest in riding Dunkerque... So no demand there, then Rasmussen alone looks good enough to give it to the morning.

[Robyklebt]

PDF preview up.

Luques chose the parallel Dauphiné.

Times a mystery. Well 22 is pretty much fix. Second one... morning again? Ideas?

I'll regard this version as final after the weekend. 26th or 27th. Or when Luques posts "final", if that's earlier.

Giro times even now almost actually, might put it on on Sunday already if everybody is satisfied with the design by then. Or wait till the Giro has details of the climb on?

[Pokemon Club]

PDF preview up.

Luques chose the parallel Dauphiné.

Times a mystery. Well 22 is pretty much fix. Second one... morning again? Ideas?

I'll regard this version as final after the weekend. 26th or 27th. Or when Luques posts "final", if that's earlier.

Giro times even now almost actually, might put it on on Sunday already if everybody is satisfied with the design by then. Or wait till the Giro has details of the climb on?

For Giro I need to change before, I'll do some modification this week end need to check again what you said with Gipfel

[Robyklebt]

Just realized I had posted this in the wrong thread...

Will start putting online today. Giro whenever Poke feels it's ready.


Giro outtakes: IMO the real races, even if probably a bunch might still get cancelled, has priority. Then... how big is the interest in riding some Giro stages parallel for those that don't ride the Giro?

Last and biggest problem: Dauphiné: Parallel to the Giro, 2 editions. 22 is clear. Second time? Easiest is to ask here and ingame who is interested in riding it and at what time. So..... what time?


Giro seems ready, online later today. Dauphiné now that it's in a sensible thread, maybe some people have a preference.

[IDF]

Personally, i don't mind in which hour. But maybe we will see easier when people will do giro.. and others who don't.
Considering Dunkerque is at 10-22.. maybe doing an afternoon edition or another morning ones. Difficult to predict.

Well, maybe let's see how much guys will ride Dunkerque and moving up to 3 editions? 1 morning , 1 afternoon or mid afternoon and the 22 ones?
Because only 2 editions for a tour like this is... that sucks. Maybe we will have more guys ( I hope for this..)

[IDF]

Thx for putting Dunkerque online anyway

[el Galactico]

No opinion on Dauphine of course. Just make sure that there is a TdS late edition 21/22 in June

[Pokemon Club]

Hum if we see that participation for Dunkerque is really low maybe we can reconsider about postponing Dauphine no?

[Robyklebt]

Generally Luques' policy has been: PDF fix, but no idea, if he wants to change that ok, if not, no...

3 editions to me looks unlikely to be honest. But if the new version is perfect till then....

TdS 21/22 is sure, evening gets all, ,strong enough. The question will be what time misses out there, I fear looks like the afternoon But we'll see.

Dauphiné, anyway, would be nice to have at least a sort of decision, 22 h and ? Then if Luques decides something else, still ok, if lots of people suddenly demand something else... ? No idea.

Giro online now (ok, 3'), check if all is ok please... Montalcino stage the one made on 4/27, correct?

[CircleCycle]

Definitely against the idea of Dauphine // to Giro AND cut TdS for afternoon.
If you move dauphine then the 2+2 like PN/TA is ok for me.