April 2020

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el Galactico
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Re: April 2020

Post by el Galactico » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:27 pm

IDF wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:02 pm
el Galactico wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:30 pm
It is true that there is no right way.

My opinion is that we should go on as "planned" at least for April. I am pretty sure May/June and possibly July as well won't be better so we might reach a point where we can't continue as "planned" before Corona due to missing profiles but until then I think the smoothest decision would be to carry on.
Perfect one. Let's do this , stay with the "planned" calendar, with most of profiles available.. if they aren't , do some fantasy stuff.
Could be funny to have a GT fantasy for RSF (in the same country) at the same place than the planned one and playing the postponed one with the real profile where they will ride IRL.
Wrong thread here in April but in the general chat I proposed a fantasy Giro design competition. Similar to the December tour.
Would love to try and design my own Giro with my favorite italian climbs :)

Maybe we could keep that in mind as a interesting idea in case a majority doesn't want to ride the real Giro.
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Re: April 2020

Post by Robyklebt » Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:47 am

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Re: April 2020

Post by Hansa » Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:20 am

Robyklebt wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:47 am
Thanks, excellent! How did you find that?

With that Romandie is basically out, Yorkshire in.
I googled giro di sicilia la flamme rouge and it showed me the profiles. The profiles shall a be found if you search for races by laflammeprofiles on la flamme Rouge but its really hard to filter them then.
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Re: April 2020

Post by Robyklebt » Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:59 am

Anyway, you're my hero now for 24 hours!
After that it's Bogarin.

Sending off the next preview to Luques now.
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Re: April 2020

Post by CircleCycle » Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:02 pm

With Romandie basically out, how about a short fantasy tour (with a TT) between PR and Amstel? Otherwise there is just the TT in Pais Vasco for the TT riders.

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Re: April 2020

Post by gaurain rx » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:07 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:33 pm


Anyway, did a fast check for the races still in yesterday.
PR seemed the same? No guarantee (counts for everything)
LBL too?
Fleche seemed somehow slightly different, number of km different, but finish (last 60+km) the same
Brabant and Schelde the same as Fleche, possible there were changes early, but finish the same.
Somehow don't remember Amstel, maybe was already cancelled...
RVV checked that before, 1 change, Eikenberg in, if I remember where exactly should be no problem to update.
So those races could be put on with last years profiles, no problem. Do we want that? Or do we want to wait for a possible "spring classics" season in summer or autumn? And the Giro for May is the same question. Do we ride the original dates? Or hope for a real edition later in the year? For me personally, (so not as Luques' calendar slave) really both ok, keep going simpler, but if we want reality ok ok, why not. But would like some sort of consistency, not ride the April classics, but postpone the Giro, something like that.
ASO Always waits quite a long time to give their official profile so I would use 2019 version for Flêche and LBL as there won't be any accurate info coming imo. Flêche they change the departure place every year but ok, doesn't matter that much imo.

Brabant, the pdf is online, I can do the adaptations :-)

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Re: April 2020

Post by IDF » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:17 pm

el Galactico wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:27 pm
IDF wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:02 pm
el Galactico wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:30 pm
It is true that there is no right way.

My opinion is that we should go on as "planned" at least for April. I am pretty sure May/June and possibly July as well won't be better so we might reach a point where we can't continue as "planned" before Corona due to missing profiles but until then I think the smoothest decision would be to carry on.
Perfect one. Let's do this , stay with the "planned" calendar, with most of profiles available.. if they aren't , do some fantasy stuff.
Could be funny to have a GT fantasy for RSF (in the same country) at the same place than the planned one and playing the postponed one with the real profile where they will ride IRL.
Wrong thread here in April but in the general chat I proposed a fantasy Giro design competition. Similar to the December tour.
Would love to try and design my own Giro with my favorite italian climbs :)

Maybe we could keep that in mind as a interesting idea in case a majority doesn't want to ride the real Giro.
yes , isaw your proposal , perfect :)
[8:11:11 PM] SM: j'ai un bug la j'arrive plus a aller sur RFM

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Re: April 2020

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:17 pm

Mostly agreed with Roby's long post (very good post actually) but need to reopen the discussion for 2 things.
Robyklebt wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:33 pm
Then:
We do have a problem. All real races cancelled, and those that aren't yet will be soon.
Design problems due to covid-19:
There was a time before la flamme rouge and all of us should check every race with official website anyways. So no problem in terms of designs for me.

2019 versions for one-day-races: yes all ok!

2020 versions for cancelled 2020 tours: yes, good solution. We had that for Oman, TA, will have it for Pais Vasco, Alps. All good. Only problem is with tours not even planned before they got cancelled (like Romandie now). Replace them with something else. Yorkshire OK for me.

GIRO: Probably need to open something in a separate thread. GIRO is special because so far it was only POSTPONED and not CANCELLED. But there is no new date and there is doubt if it will happen in 2020 at all! So I suggest: If they don't publish a new date before a specific deadline (20 April?), we treat GIRO like every other cancelled tour. We ride the real race with the original profiles. If they really publish a new date - and I have big doubt, can't belive they would put it between le tour and vuelta - then we can wait for new date and instead ride a fantasy Giro in May (contest will be fun). But if it gets cancelled (and no new date by end of April essentially means cancelled) then we should treat it like all other cancelled races.
Robyklebt wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 4:33 pm
Alps: For me 3 editions is enough. It has some WT team starting usually, but far from all. Counted 5 last year. 9 the year before, 7 2016. No guarantee I counted right. IMO with our numbers, even if they might be increasing thanks to the virus, that's not enough to add a 4th one. And possibly take away one edition for the more important FW.
Please 4 times for Alps. Please. Yes, FW is important but it is no monument so it can have a parallel race. Other cat5 races have parallel races too. And it would be unfair to some group if they are punished for nothing by not allowing someone to ride Alps. With 9-14-21 probably early evening people are punished. They just cannot ride it at all. So please 4 times. Morning, afternoon, early evening and late evening.
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Re: April 2020

Post by Pokemon Club » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:39 am

Gipfelstuermer wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:17 pm



GIRO: Probably need to open something in a separate thread. GIRO is special because so far it was only POSTPONED and not CANCELLED. But there is no new date and there is doubt if it will happen in 2020 at all! So I suggest: If they don't publish a new date before a specific deadline (20 April?), we treat GIRO like every other cancelled tour. We ride the real race with the original profiles. If they really publish a new date - and I have big doubt, can't belive they would put it between le tour and vuelta - then we can wait for new date and instead ride a fantasy Giro in May (contest will be fun). But if it gets cancelled (and no new date by end of April essentially means cancelled) then we should treat it like all other cancelled races.
I change my mind, I am fully disagree with postponed Giro (and any others racess we can draw with the current information we have) else if we have a new date.
Why ? Because in the game our riders grow old way more faster than in reality. If some planned 10 months ago to ride the Giro with a 31 or 33 yo rider in May, it is defintively not the same than having a 35 or 37 yo rider in September. And these shouldn't be penalized if the game can avoid that.

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Re: April 2020

Post by IDF » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:51 pm

Pokemon Club wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:39 am
If some planned 10 months ago to ride the Giro with a 31 or 33 yo rider in May, it is defintively the same than having a 35 or 37 yo rider in September. And these shouldn't be penalized if the game can avoid that.
You mean NOT the same? :D
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Re: April 2020

Post by Robyklebt » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:05 am

Donkey starts designing Sicilia.

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Re: April 2020

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:44 pm

Not sure if due to quarantine or real season start or both but we have slightly higher participation overall recently, e.g. today 39 in one day race plus 45 in catalunya.

For now I am simply happy for slightly larger pelotons. But it should also help for some small decisions, e.g. 4 editions for tour of the Alps.
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Re: April 2020

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:42 am

Over 80 so go to 9 editions immediately? Don't see the point. Rather enjoy the half decent group sizes than dilute them.

Don't really see why these Alps are so important all of the sudden... proposal sent to Luques still has 3 editions, seems enough for me. If he changes ok, don't think he will... since he's already x days late with posting the updated proposal.. .grr
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Re: April 2020

Post by luques » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:41 am

Updated trusted the Donkey!

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Re: April 2020

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:03 am

Ok, last chances to argue for changes then!

Hope the times are generally better than the first proposal...
4 times Alps still don't see a need, but if you find excellent arguments...
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Re: April 2020

Post by el Galactico » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:35 am

Can't see any change in times regarding the 23h problem? Or did you finally opt to leave it as it was?
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Re: April 2020

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:32 am

You need to reload! Refresh!

Weekend 23 is gone.
Weekdays there, but with 5 editions... 21 or 20 there too. And it's not like 23 is that weak.

Yorkshire of course won't be cat 4... and not 9 riders. And looking at the times I'm not fully convinced.... 19-23... 22 again??
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Re: April 2020

Post by el Galactico » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:26 am

Personally I'd say yes to 22h but considering there is no tour at 23 h next month it would also be okay in terms of offering different times.

For me you can start and upload races so we can start planning next month.
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Re: April 2020

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:33 pm

Ah finally time to complain ^^

- Alps and Sicilia can be 4 editions imo. Add afternoon for Sicilia. Add early evening for Alps. Could be an option. I am fine with 21/22. These are my preferred times anyway. But afternoon people or early evening could have reason to complain.

Evening times. Roby doesn't ride there, so some details to help to optimize them.
- Pais Vasco 18-22 and Romandie 19-23 not optimal imo. 4h difference is too much for the evening. You are completely missing the 20/21 people. Ok, 21 gets Sicilia currently. Suggestion is rather 19-22 or 20-23 or even 20-22.

(oh, my computer did not download the right version before, so forget a few things, that I was writing here before, sry...)
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Re: April 2020

Post by Mangahn » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:11 pm

I agree with the mainpoint from Gipfelstürmer, dem ewigen zweiten.

The tours missing 20/21 o clock much. This is maintime.

greetings your

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Re: April 2020

Post by Robyklebt » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:17 am

Gipfelstuermer wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:33 pm
Ah finally time to complain ^^

- Alps and Sicilia can be 4 editions imo. Add afternoon for Sicilia. Add early evening for Alps. Could be an option. I am fine with 21/22. These are my preferred times anyway. But afternoon people or early evening could have reason to complain.

Evening times. Roby doesn't ride there, so some details to help to optimize them.
- Pais Vasco 18-22 and Romandie 19-23 not optimal imo. 4h difference is too much for the evening. You are completely missing the 20/21 people. Ok, 21 gets Sicilia currently. Suggestion is rather 19-22 or 20-23 or even 20-22.

(oh, my computer did not download the right version before, so forget a few things, that I was writing here before, sry...)
Can't forget what I didn't read...

Evening times. Not optimal, yes, but the problem is: We're down to 4 times max for tours it seems. And with that the evening basically loses one. With for editions we're not cutting the morning, we're not cutting the afternoon, we're not cutting the early evening, we're cutting the evening. No discussion needed, it's crystal clear. So 20-23 is rather unlikely to happen, 20-22 simply won't happen with 4 editions. Early evening is 17-19, it should always have a time. won't push one back to 20. Result, if their are 4 times, 20-23 will get one. Often 22. But not every single time. Right now of 4 tours the evening gets all 4, normal.
2x 22
1x 21+23

Solutions?
Pais VAsco back up to 5 editions? I don't think we have the numbers, but if people insist, it's only Schelde parallel... Then we can go to 21-23 there.
For Alps and Sicilia adding a 4th time won't change anything for the evening. As you yourself say, afternoon or early evening would profit.
Yorkshire.. it already has 4 times which is possibly one more than really needed. But since it's kind of Romandie replacement, why not, 5 to me looks like complete overkill.

So what's the solution?
Yorkshire time is bad, yes, should be changed, not sure what I was thinking there. Probably nothing.
But change to what? 22 again?Those that can 21 maybe can 22 as well... 23 guys 22 better, ok ok, the thing is though that we don't need fix standard times, because with that we in the end penalize always the same people. Those that can't on those times or those that can but it's not ideal. Even if it's 80% perfect 22, 20% not, by giving always the best for the 80% we're being unfair. So... move it around a bit.

3x 22 to me seems a lot, would prefer twice...

Change Alps or Pais VAsco to 21? Yorkshire 22? All 3 22?
So
18-21
18-22
19-22
the 3 combinations for those 3?
Add a 5th Pais Vasco?

Anyway, whatever happens 19-23 for Yorkshire clearly won't stay. 18-22 I have less of a problem with, at least for Alps. For PV

So, what's the solution?

4 editions for Sicilia and Alps.....
It's not like the afternoon really has lots and lots of people... And again, less people in the end means more sacrifice with regards to time. Evening only 1 instead of 2. The other times miss more stage races. Miss stage races before they miss one day races, because 1 day races are the lifeline.
Afternoon, PN had 6 teams and parallel 8-5-5-3-4-no race-6-5.
Now with the coronavirus running wild numbers are higher, 12 Catalunya, parallel 9-6-6-11 so far. With numbers like that, ok. But will they stay?
Early evening: Tirreno 9, parallel 5-6-5-4-3-9-9 That's better than the afternoon, but far from outstanding.
Catalunya 11, so far parallel no race-8-8-6 So unlike the afternoon no increase.

I don't see the point in adding a fourth edition for these 2 races, simply don't see the numbers. And I think the afternoon/early evening people in the end prefer bigger groups too... at least I do, often assume others are as sensible and clear thinking as me :lol:
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Re: April 2020

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:51 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:17 am
Early evening is 17-19, it should always have a time. won't push one back to 20. Result, if their are 4 times, 20-23 will get one. Often 22. But not every single time. Right now of 4 tours the evening gets all 4, normal.
Aaah now I see the misunderstanding!!

With 5 times, we had core times
morning (9/10)
afternoon (14/15)
early evening (18/19)
evening (20/21)
late evening (22/23)

Now roby sees
morning (9/10)
afternoon (14/15)
early evening (17/18/19)
evening (20/21/22/23)
?

Roby, I think that is completely wrong categories for the evening. Actually it is still the old categories. Usually the same managers prefer early evening, evening or late evening, just a bit more flexible maybe than the morning / afternoon managers. And in fact the strongest times are 20/21/22 and surely not 17/18/19 !! So your preferred treatment of early evening makes no sense to me.

Would be much better to rotate which of the three categories you leave out for 4-edition-tours. Sometimes early evening, sometimes evening, sometimes late evening will have to be dropped. So combination of 20-22 or 21-23 should definitely be an option!
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Re: April 2020

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:40 am

Gipfelstuermer wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:51 pm
Robyklebt wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:17 am
Early evening is 17-19, it should always have a time. won't push one back to 20. Result, if their are 4 times, 20-23 will get one. Often 22. But not every single time. Right now of 4 tours the evening gets all 4, normal.
Aaah now I see the misunderstanding!!

With 5 times, we had core times
morning (9/10)
afternoon (14/15)
early evening (18/19)
evening (20/21)
late evening (22/23)

Now roby sees
morning (9/10)
afternoon (14/15)
early evening (17/18/19)
evening (20/21/22/23)
?

Roby, I think that is completely wrong categories for the evening. Actually it is still the old categories. Usually the same managers prefer early evening, evening or late evening, just a bit more flexible maybe than the morning / afternoon managers. And in fact the strongest times are 20/21/22 and surely not 17/18/19 !! So your preferred treatment of early evening makes no sense to me.

Would be much better to rotate which of the three categories you leave out for 4-edition-tours. Sometimes early evening, sometimes evening, sometimes late evening will have to be dropped. So combination of 20-22 or 21-23 should definitely be an option!
Drivel.
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Re: April 2020

Post by Mangahn » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:35 pm

Do we wait for Luques this time, too? Not sure he´s able to come online.

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Re: April 2020

Post by Robyklebt » Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:34 am

Ok, sent the newest version to Luques. With 2 options:

1
Changes:
Tour of Alps 10-19-22 Fleche Wallone changed to 18h
Yorkshire: 10-14-18-21

So Yorkshire from 23 to 21, then 19 to 18 as well of course.
Alps change from 18 to 19

No 23h tour now, which I don't find perfect either,

2
5 times Pais Vasco, 18-21-23
And 22 for Yorkshire, not 23

If Luques doesn't post an updated version until some time tomorrow I'll regard it as final and start uploading. Option 1. Or the option that gets more votes here, if there are any.
If he does post of course I'll regard anything he posts as final too.
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Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

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