August 2019

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luques
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August 2019

Post by luques » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:49 pm


team fl
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Re: August 2019

Post by team fl » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:19 pm

I would inlcude Denmark, and think about leaving Burgos out. Both Denmark and Burgos are 2. HC, so no difference there. You could even think about Burgos AND Denmark maybe, if Burgos is a given. Because usually, the decision for Vuelta or not will not be made with a decision for Denmark, I guess. And the important one day races are only San Sebastian (parallel to Pologne) and Hamburg (parallel to the Vuelta and maybe Denmark).
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

Robyklebt
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Re: August 2019

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:44 pm

Any other comments for August?
Like only 4 editions for the Vuelta?

Denmark: IMO the problem is not the Vuelta, but Hamburg.... Another Tour, Hamburg gets even worse participation.

Burgos, no strong opinion either way, no important 1 day race in parallel, so 2 tours seems ok, on the other hand Binck Bank more important, so no problem to skip it either.
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Re: August 2019

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:08 pm

Puh, the 4 edition Vuelta is really tricky... Having the 40-50 participants divided by 4 instead of 5 would be nice, but effectively that's not how it is. Morning and Afternoon get their own edition, early evening gets basically their own (because if you go later than 19 would lose some players) and then the 20-23h players, who are the biggest number (29 in Giro, 23 in TdF) get "punished" with only one edition.

So, having 4 editions with more teams per edition would be nice... I just don't believe it will work like that... It will just mean one huge 22h edition. I mean 22h was 19 teams at the Giro although it was five editions. Vuelta maybe less popular than Giro... So probably will be the question: 1 field or 2 fields for 22h?

Overall, I think it will be fairer to have 5 editions then...
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RS Coesitz
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Re: August 2019

Post by RS Coesitz » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:39 pm

No Vuelta in the later evening would be very sad in my eyes. At least for me. Don´t you think think the numbers could be similar to the Tour (where the fields all have good numbers)? If not, at least 22h would be a compromise.

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Re: August 2019

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:57 am

Not sure I fully understand Coesitz message. 23 would be good he says, I think.

With 4 editions would be the ones proposed now I think.
With 5 evening 18-21-23 seems logical. Although 18-20-23 would work too.

The big problem with the Vuelta is:
Parallel the following races

One day races, WT, cat 5 normally

Hamburg
Plouay
Québec
Montréal

+ other nice classics and semi classics as

Brussels Cycling Classic cat 4
Fourmies cat 4,
Agostoni cat 3
Bernocchi cat 3
Plus some Belgian 1.1. races.

So far so good, go with 4+4 or 5+4, but then:

Denmark, parallel with Hamburg (an alternative might be the less important Limousin, that is parallel to the Vuelta too, but finishes one day before Hamburg)
Deutschland, parallel with Plouay
Britain, parallel to Québec, Montréal, Brussels, Fourmies and Agostoni

So what to do?

5 Vuelta
4 Classics (less IMO not ok)
3 parallel tours
To me that seems too much.
Original proposal
4-4-0 Vuelta-Hamburg-Denmark
4-4-3 Vuelta-Hamburg-Germany
4-4-3 Vuelta-x classics-Britain

Up to 11, already better.
Of course going 5-4-0 or 5-5-0 all the way would be my favorite solution.... Forget Denmark, Germany and Britain, who needs them? But well, since there is a Deutschland Tour again, our hordes of Germans might want to ride it. Britain.... gaining in importance, last year had 11 World Tour teams in reality, so good participation (even if those WT teams clearly don't start with their top teams)... Denmark the weakest so in the end only cut that in my proposal to Luques. Now FL wants it, grrr. :evil:

And somehow I would like to keep maximum 2 of these 3 parallel tours. One reason as mentioned is that the classics suffer, we've had some horrible participation there in the last years. Another one is not to make the parallel program too attractive, especially money-wise. 3 stages races 17 racing days, money wise clearly the best option for almost any team. Plus I have this fix idea that no self-respecting manager should ride Denmark-Deutschland-Britain when in parallel there is either the Vuelta or a bunch of nice classics on offer... but since this idea doesn't seem to be widespread enough.... give some "help" :lol: Not offering all 3 for example.

But all 3 can be ok too, if we want that.
How about
5-4-2 for all three things? 9-20, 17-22 (I like 17 here because it's unpopular (helping hand again) and since 5 Vuelta editions would most likely mean 18-21-23 in the evening 19-22 seems a bit much...) and ?-? 14-19?
Or cut one (really ideally would be Britain since it's parallel to so much, but the importance...) and do 9-20+17-22?

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Re: August 2019

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:21 pm

Puh, pretty good arguments from Roby... Hard to ignore that, but it is really getting into a deeper discussion on calendar.

I agree with your favorite solution to have only two parallel races at every point in time (your 5-4-0 or 5-5-0 solution). This would be ideal in my point of view, because with the current number of active players three parallel races is basically always too much.

We can probably achieve that during all year EXCEPT for the GTs. It is just a bit hard to offer only GT or only One Day Races. So we need a compromise, right?

How about 4 Vuelta, 4 Classics, 2 parallel tours? Then times: Can luques say, if it is really a problem to put two races at the same time? Because I continue to disagree with those unpopular times, like 17h. Why design a race for only two editions and then - intentionally - make it unpopular? IMO would be best for participation to put all races at popular times! At least as long as we don't have 200+ active players.

Why only two editions for parallel tours in my point of view? This allows to have all three tours (Denmark, Britain, Germany) but makes it difficult for most people to ride all three in a row, which I agree is a shame with Vuelta parallel.

By the way, need to talk about times for Poland, BinckBank and Burgos as well. Poland should have 22h if you want to give only 4 times. It is the most popular time. BinckBank and Burgos is tricky. 4-4 seems to much. Maybe 3-3? Tough because some players will be left out from the edition they want to ride... So maybe 4-4 is fairer although low participation is likely? Or drop one of the two tours? But both are similarly important I think...
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RS Coesitz
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Re: August 2019

Post by RS Coesitz » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:59 am

Your arguments are good, Roby. From me, it´s more or less a personal point of view. But I think for the ones who ride later in the evening, at least riding the last edition at 22h would be a compromise between the 21h and 23h-teams.

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Re: August 2019

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:42 am

Anyway, with 5 Vuelta editions
10-15-18-21-23
Denmark-Deutschland-Britain (Sept) parallel, with times 9-14-19-20-22 and ??? Kind of lost to be honest on what adding as 6th time. Any ideas?
Classics with 4 times, Sunday classics times are more flexible, of course same time as the Vuelta possible, one day ok, but also times like 11, 16, 17 ok, Sundays people are more flexible. Saturday too.

With 4 Vuelta
10-15-19-22
And great idea, don't increse the parallel stuff in that case, leave it at 2 each ,9-14-18-20-21-23 in that case, 9-20, 14-21, 18-23

Burgos according to FL can be cut, for me ok, since nobody else has commented for the moment I'm pro cut too (even if I really don't care much eithe way.)
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team fl
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Re: August 2019

Post by team fl » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:38 pm

Cut Burgos and forget Denmark. Rather have decent one day races and not parallel tours for August, in my opinion.
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

Laurens88
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Re: August 2019

Post by Laurens88 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:11 pm

Denmark is not so interesting, just TT and sprint race usually. Burgos on the other hand is the only tour I could ride next month, so I would like it to be in. But if I am the only one, then I can live without tours for a month.

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Re: August 2019

Post by team fl » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:16 pm

Laurens88 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:11 pm
Denmark is not so interesting, just TT and sprint race usually. Burgos on the other hand is the only tour I could ride next month, so I would like it to be in. But if I am the only one, then I can live without tours for a month.
Binck Bank not interestimg dor you?
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

Laurens88
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Re: August 2019

Post by Laurens88 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:12 am

Not interesting indeed as I neither have a sprint- nor TT-team. And also due to the trips I make I would need a sitter for 2 days that tour which is too much for me, for Burgos it's only one day. :D

luques
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Re: August 2019

Post by luques » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:24 am

So first part of August seems ok for everybody.

To be honest the first draft looked pretty ok for me.

I don't see a big problem in having Burgos in parallel with Bink Bank as there is no important classic in parallel and they should offer a variety of races (Bink Bank should be more flat while Burgos more hilly).

Denmark can be cut, don't see a big problem in it and goes to disturb Hamburg.

As for Vuelta 4 or 5, I would be personally for 4 editions. But both imo are ok, it's the first year we are trying with this prize money so don't know how many will go for the classic and how many for the GT.

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Re: August 2019

Post by luques » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:54 pm

I received a couple of requests for Denmark, so actually isn't that unpopular as I thought (think even FL was for it at the beginning of the discussion).

I know Roby doesn't like these type of things but what about anticipating Denmark of 1 day, so that it doesn't overlap with Hamburg? Will still overlap with Vuelta, but I think it would be an acceptable compromise.

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Re: August 2019

Post by Robyklebt » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:02 pm

Whatever, whatever, as long as it's done soon.

But actually another thing I'm against is requests made in private. That's what this thread is for. So everybody can see it. That's the whole point. If we all write our requests privately, be it by PN or in races, we might as well just stop posting previews etc and decide on the calendar without having a public discussion place.

But ok, as long as it's done soon...whatever you want. How about downgrading Denmark to cat 2 if it's ridden one day early? Allows the double-point/money thing Denmark Hamburg, punish Denmark!
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Re: August 2019

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:11 pm

In the meantime we need to design the races :lol:

San Sebastian

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London Surrey

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Next Pologne, plan to finish it tomorrow

Pologne

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luques
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Re: August 2019

Post by luques » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:26 pm

Updated, well, ready for insults :lol:

Gipfelstuermer
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Re: August 2019

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:10 pm

Ok, before we start the insults... some serious topics :D


Poland: latest version 21h? Would be nice to have 22h or 23h.

Burgos: Burgos latest version 19h, while BinckBank gets 21h and 23h? Maybe can do Burgos 9-21 and BinckBank 10-16-19-23?

Denmark: 4 editions acceptable, although I believe 2 or 3 is enough.

Vuelta: Again, 4 editions acceptable, although I believe 5 is fairer as long as money/team depends on number of teams.
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Robyklebt
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Re: August 2019

Post by Robyklebt » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:18 pm

You saw the complaints and insults ingame in the chat I think. So no need to repeat them here.

If you want to correct something, do it, otherwise finalize!

Pologne done, ready to put it online. Profiles above in the same post as San Sebastian and London ones, to keep this one onyl text.
Clasica de San Sebastian and London Surrey online already, so not changing the times for that would be kind of good...

I'll continue first with Burgos, then BinckBank (usually should be the other way around, but often Gaurain seems eager doing Belgian things, so first Burgos for me)

Might be done before the 31st, no guarantee.

Remains to be done:

Vuelta!!!
Denmark
Deutschland

Remains to be checked and done if there are changes: All the 1 day races. For the ones I checked (not all)couldn't find info neither on their website nor on la flamme rouge yet.

Pavé: Slag om Norg on the 11th should be pavé (resp. dirt road?) again, but no info that I understand in less than 5 minutes on yet. (A PDF with a roadbook which would take me more than 5 min to see if something and what etc changed)
Zottegem had some pavé too last year 2 km of ** each lap, after the last passage 4 km to the finish. Counts as another flat pavé race then. Should we still plan a fantasy hilly pavé race?
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Laurens88
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Re: August 2019

Post by Laurens88 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:30 pm

No insults from me. :D

Since I was the one who mainly asked for Burgos, I designed it already, so I hope nobody else started yet. Note that it is the first tour I ever designed, so it might be good if an experienced designer checks if I did all technical stuff specific for tours correctly in the editor. :lol: Stage names are of the format burgos01.c4f.

Also, it was the first time I used La Flamme Rouge. I used the mountain sprints from there and can't find any other 2019 information online. If the H.C. is a bit too much, please tell me how to adjust it.

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Robyklebt
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Re: August 2019

Post by Robyklebt » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:26 am

Binckbank:

Gaurain will do stages 4 and 7, I'll do the rest. Finished by tomorrow normally.

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Flat. 5 pavé sectors, 2 omitted, they are 200 meter long The 3 remaining ones, twice 1 km at **, then one km * at km 116. The 2 ** on google street looked like ** to me, the first one harder, even a **,5 maybe... * clearly a * So same rating as la flamme rouge.

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One pavé km, *** this time, km 86. Checked on google street, looked harder than the ones the day before. flamme rouge *** as well, so thought ok. Now just saw that last year this stage existed too... Feiting did **. ** better?

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Flat again, not even the random pavé km here.
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Another completely flat one.

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8 km ITT.
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Tukhtahuaev
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Re: August 2019

Post by Tukhtahuaev » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:57 am

If you want I could at least do the first Vuelta week, but that would be with an inacurate Flamme Rouge version because I can't find more than the profiles anywhere


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Last edited by Tukhtahuaev on Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:39 pm, edited 5 times in total.

luques
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Re: August 2019

Post by luques » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:50 pm

Times updated and for me final, in general I don't see really big problems in it, have nice holidays.

Gipfelstuermer
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Re: August 2019

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:24 pm

You can find Vuelta here:

viewtopic.php?f=15&p=103128#p103128

Still a lot of problems:
- No roadbook
- No IS
- No Jerseys from Luques
- No Bonus Points / Mountain Points from Luques
- Only little information about sterrato and pave.

Seems Tukh and I did double work :shock:
I thought, it is a GT, so it gets its own thread. But ok, Roby's campaign to devalue Vuelta seems to work :D

Anyway, maybe Tukh, can you doublecheck mine maybe?
As we both probably worked with la flamme rouge (no official roadbook yet...) only real difference might probably be the Camí les Pardines. I put ** because I think it will be a very selective part of the race. Look at the Street View:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5180481 ... 312!8i6656

And then at some point, the Google Car was afraid to continue and there is no street view anymore :D

This is not like a sterrato on Colle delle Finestre .. It is very narrow and really with a lot of rocks and stones and so on... And when you imagine, only few riders will arrive there together, it can be a decisive factor. But * in RSF is nearly nothing, so I believe ** is more accurate. I mean we have the same discussion with Strade Bianche often and this year we allowed some ** as well...
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