November 2010

[Luna]

Folks, don't speak about the Campeonato de los Andes as an ordinary fantasy tour. Although it's quite extreme and unreal it is the one RSF classic stage race that's nearly as important and respectable as a real race. No other RSF classic race, be it a tour or a one day race, has ever been sanctioned with category 3. The Campeonato is nearly more real than any UCI 2.2 oversea event of November or December, where teams and riders compete who never anybody has heard from, except maybe Francisco Mancebo or Oscar Sevilla in case they are free to ride.

[Elaska]

Leso i don't think Bolivia with 6 days is a long parralel tour to Anden !

8 days from 7.11-15.11...... 10 stages

With 6 days, maybe I would have accepted it.
I have proposed to short it, If I correct remember, but it would not be accepted.

If you want to reduce it no problem for me ...

[auxilium torino]

Sorry, but last year in November there were only!! Kat 2 races. 2, 1 race Kat. 3 and the rest just fantasy ...
I think that you can not force people to do the Andes because ... 'pleases you, but you have to offer viable alternatives to all those participating in this game ... and here is not' the case!
'cause I do to force the Andes??
I want real competition, real ... and if there are, 'cause I am obliged not to run?
and this' policy unfair and childish, which cuts out of the game who does not have a right team, relegating it to run races stupid fantasy, or to lose ... what is the point that I go in the Andes, and then after a week, remain without a club ...

[auxilium torino]

Here you are doing a discriminatory policy against those who want to run other races, and not 'right, as we contribute in some form to support RSF

[Luna]

Sorry, but last year in November there were only!! Kat 2 races. 2, 1 race Kat. 3 and the rest just fantasy ...

Bolivia or any other fantasy tour wouldn't be more than cat 1 or maybe 2, anyway.

And if there would be 2 stage races, instead of one, parallel to Andes, chances for everybody would be higher to get a gc result in either one of it. So better competition against those who ride Andes and fail bitterly.

[auxilium torino]

Bolivia is not fantasy, and nov. give Ecuador, Rwanda, Alanya, costarica, Etc...

[Robyklebt]

Fantasy races are not stupid. Ok, some are maybe, but many are not. Plus Bolivia would have to be cat 1, clearly. Not even worth discussing, it's cat 1.
Not enough cat 2+ races? Agreed, we could use some more cat 2 one day races. Fantasy classics. But we don't right now...

[Luna]

Bolivia or any other fantasy tour wouldn't be more than cat 1 or maybe 2, anyway.

Bolivia is not fantasy, and nov. give Ecuador, Rwanda, Alanya, costarica, Etc...

Ah yes, my mistake. I meant "Bolivia or any other real tour in Nov/Dec..."

[Lizard]

Not enough cat 2+ races? Agreed, we could use some more cat 2 one day races. Fantasy classics. But we don't right now...

Yes, yes! More classic races. Already last year I said we need some worth-getting one day classics during the Campeonato. I might just draw some.

[Robyklebt]

And I'll oppose every single one of them...

IMO one day fantasy classics should be races that were liked in their first edition. And somebody or a few people mentioned that here in the forum. Not some races designed to be "classics".

[auxilium torino]

i don't want classic fantasy, but real races!

[Lizard]

And I'll oppose every single one of them...

IMO one day fantasy classics should be races that were liked in their first edition. And somebody or a few people mentioned that here in the forum. Not some races designed to be "classics".

And where did I say that they instantly have to be cat. 2 or ever be ridden again... ?

[Robyklebt]

Aux: Yes, I understood that.

Wizard: Ah ok. Won't oppose cat 1 of course But what would be as useful as designing races would be. FEEDBACK. Like Luna did here:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=289

And I did a lot in the old forum, but nobody else seems interested. So don't only design, that too is good though, but if you see a race by fantasy race that you really liked, for whatever reason, mention it there too.

[NoPikouze]

Well one point is that in our rsf world, Campeonato Andes (or however that thing is called) is considered as an important race and has a "real" status.
Add to this that Bolivia (and Southland) are crap, IRL as well as for RSF. Which gives them a cat1 fantasy status.

Something paralel to the Andes would be nice, it's very long and uninteresting for a lot of people. Give them something else.
But bolivia or another decent fantasy tour, who cares ? Oh yeah sprinter teams who want 2 easy flat stages/day

Don't pretend Bolivia is important because it's real, otherwise I'll ask you to draw every other real tour during the whole season. Only god knows how many of those races exist!


PS: I was thinking of that feedback stuff this afternoon, would be really nice, and useful to get some fantasy-classics maybe. I'll try to do it sometimes ...

[Luna]

i don't want classic fantasy, but real races!

I understand you very much. And I feel the same for most parts of the season. But we just have this race editor and users create tours after tours. When should we put them in the calendar if not in the period of Nov + Dec, when there are no really big whoohoo must-be-ridden races on schedule in RL?

[auxilium torino]

i think that you don't understand..in this form, nobody that don't ride Ande, will take a good point for is team...this IS discriminative!!!
"You" give to the other team, that no have a chance to win Andes, NO chance to ride and win another little important title!

Ande is only for team with a good Mountain team...while give not a good alternative race and tour to the others team??

[Luna]

Although I must say, I don't like it very much to see that flood of planlass drawings of fantasy stage races, getting more and more out of control, regarding lenght (number of days) and the demand of mainly real character of profiles and locations. But as long as it is the way it is, we need to include those races into consideration for the calendar planning.

[Luna]

i think that you don't understand..in this form, nobody that don't ride Ande, will take a good point for is team...this IS discriminative!!!
"You" give to the other team, that no have a chance to win Andes, NO chance to ride and win another little important title!

That's the same as in every month with a Grand Tour. Who doesn't take part in the Giro, Tour or Vuelta has only few chances to avoid being relegated to the next lower division that month.

[auxilium torino]

this it not the same...giro, tuor and vuelta are real RF, and in the same time give more intresting little tour or onedayrace

In may was Giro...at the same time
DUNKERQUE 5 days
5 LÄNDER 3 days
CALIFORNIA 8 days(why california 8 days was not a problem, and now 8 days is too much??)
BAYERN 5 days
BELGIQUE 5 days
PICARDIE 3 days

und now,is not allowed an 8 days tour!

[auxilium torino]

le tour time:

AUSTRIA , 8 days (8 days?????)
TOUR DE L'ILEr 3 days
BRIXIA 5 days

[Cerro Torre RT]

I agree that the Campeonato de los Andes should not be the totally dominating main program. The reasons are clear. It is indeed a very special tour, inrealitically hard, and it needs a license. So despite its importance it gained during the last years, only a minority of teams will ride it. And i think that is ok, as I don't want somebody to feel forced to ride it. So i think a week-long, quite easy tour would be suitable for the race calender.

If it should be Bolivia is another case. It is a real race, yes, but of very few importance, and there might be al lot of more interesting fantasy tours. So i think I would be quite the same opinion as roby, but in the end I have to keep out of that decission as i will go for the Campeonato for sure. The only thing i like to state is that i think a tour of 7 or 8 days would be quite siutable parallel to the Campeonato.

[auxilium torino]

Bolivia, is very different profile...i don' t understand what is the problem...is real race, and i don't think that teams that are intresting in Andes, want now ride Bolivia...

[Lizard]

i think that you don't understand..in this form, nobody that don't ride Ande, will take a good point for is team...this IS discriminative!!!
"You" give to the other team, that no have a chance to win Andes, NO chance to ride and win another little important title!

That's the same as in every month with a Grand Tour. Who doesn't take part in the Giro, Tour or Vuelta has only few chances to avoid being relegated to the next lower division that month.

Further more, the Campeonato is seen as the fourth Grand Tour of the year. No, it is not discriminating to other teams in my opinion aswell.

Btw: I have started a Dec-Tour last off-season but won't participate in the votings this year. It's 4 days, I think it's a good length parallel to Anden, also in the southern hemisphere (Indonesia). If leso is interested, here it is (Look here to see the tour). If it doesn't fit because of the profiles, no prob, another drawer may get his tour to be ridden. But in any case I'd support a fantasy tour to be ridden because it's off-season.

[auxilium torino]

Discrimination is a sociological term referring to the treatment taken toward or against an individual of a certain group in consideration based solely on class or category. Discrimination is the actual behavior towards another group. It involves excluding or restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to other groups.

you give a good chance only to the mountains specialized team...this is DISCRIMINATION

[Lizard]

Aha, so it's not okay to let the sprinters suffer during Campeonato (ergo: ride Bolivia?) but okay to let suffer the classic teams like Quick-Step and Wizards Cycling with a sprint tour during a huge climbers tour? I'd prefer something were sprinters dont take every stage (but for sure may get some!) and with more than 0%, because else we really don't think of some teams.